I don’t understand why some choose to comment and extol the virtues of things not relevant to the question/decision at hand.

Maybe because other people will sometimes read this thread and learn something about their own options?

"That’s always an interesting phenomenon to me. Especially since I had specifically mentioned narrowing down options, and being very specific with the models I was choosing between. That would indicate that I had been researching."

It actually just indicates that you are currently considering two different models and doesn't indicate that you have done any research at all.

Since we are discussing interesting "phenomenon"... it's always interesting to me that people feel they are entitled to only the free advice they find acceptable.

@bry911 That's silly. There is no entitled...if I were offering someone advice that they neither requested, and in which I wasn't an expert (experience with either of those two models), I would appreciate the note to let me know these types of responses have actually made it more difficult for that person to find the info they were seeking. But, I also understand this is the world wide web, and some folks find it almost impossible to keep their highly esteemed opinions and preferences to themselves.

Exactly how did a single response that you didn't find useful make it "more difficult to make a decision?" You are just being overly dramatic.

I clicked on this thread to offer my experienced opinion, but I don't want to deal with the drama.

Good luck with your decision.

jazzandjerz: I always like when posters give me their opinions. This is a discussion board, open to all. It's not like you are paying for someone's opinion and their time so it's costing you anything to hear other thoughts and solutions. People here like to discuss alternatives. I guess I'm not as smart or as knowledgeable as you. as I welcome more information. I doubt you will be struck with paralysis by analysis due to all your research and prior decisions. Just pass by those posts that don't fit your narrative.

Bry911, it isn’t a single comment that I am referencing. It is the aggregate of multiple comments on multiple threads. Many times I (and others based on some responses I’ve received) searched for specific topics on this forum, and there are multiple posts with folks offering tangential opinions, but not even attempting to answer the question asked. Sometimes, even worse, a poster will be told their opinion or conclusion isn’t “valid”. I DON’T KNOW HOW I’M BEING DRAMATIC, OMG!!!!! ;)

But really, I have been polite and straightforward, no drama. I’m sorry you don’t feel like sharing your Thermador experience, but maybe someday, someone will ask a question about the best standalone coffee grinder, and you can post your thoughts about your built-in on that post. :)

@bry911 The all caps was a joke, and hopefully over the top dramatic...followed by a winky face. It's coffee maker talk...not the most serious stuff I've encountered all day, unfortunately. I do think it's silly to make a statement like "I was going to tell you, but now I'm not", but again, coffee makers on the internet, there will be all types of responses.

I greatly appreciate those who have contributed so much to the question I asked, and have tried to respond thanking each of them personally. I'm an equal opportunity responder, I guess.

I have removed this comment to stop anyone from erroneously reading between the lines.

bry911, Reading between the lines, it sounds like you may have personal experience with the Thermador (unlike Opaone), but aren’t a fan. That is helpful information, as the only reviews of the actual machine I’ve found have been very positive. So thanks for that! Another clue in my research journey regarding those two machines.

It’s always difficult to feel like you have thorough info about a product when you can only find 100% positive reviews (none that are neutral or negative to a specific product), or blanket negative statements about an entire category of products without personal experience. The search for specifics continues!

We had the Miele built in model for 5 years and we loved it…huge coffee drinkers. Yes, there is maintenance. When one buys a coffee machine that is 5k +, it comes with it. Note- we are in Canada so Canadian prices. We just did the maintenance as indicated. We sold our condo and of course the machine went with it. We loved it though. Our new place was already built and we bought a Miele countertop version until we decide to refresh down the road in the new place. The picture is what we did in our dining room in our condo that we sold. No regrets. This is why there are options for built in units for those that want them.

@majones123, thank you! We are also going to use it in a non-kitchen application with a fridge (fridge drawers actually) underneath. It’s helpful to see that your similar setup worked well for you.

"@opaone I haven't figured out why the Miele coffee tastes so much better to me. It tastes stronger but the dose is the same. I'm still playing with the Breville, we've only had it a week, but I'm really sorry I got the Touch because you can't change the dose or tamp settings."

I think once you learn it you'll be quite happy with it.

Dose & Tamp are functions of basket size - there's a proper dose & tamp for a basket and deviation from that results in too thick or thin a puck and bad extraction. This is one of the things that Breville nailed - the dose & tamp are spot on, stay that way and others can't do it. There is no need nor benefit to change them. Realistically if you want to play with dose & tamp then you also need to be using a good flat burr grinder so kind of a different (but very fun) world.

On the Oracle, adjust the grind until you get extraction beginning at 10 secs (or between 9 and 11) and you'll get a perfect shot for the beans you're using every time.

Also remember that the Oracle is an espresso machine vs the Miele that is more of a drip psuedo-espresso machine so you'll generally need different beans. That said, we constantly play with beans and the best we've found for the Oracle and interestingly also for other stuff is Spyhouse Bold & Beautiful.

We have the Miele... it was installed roughly 8 years ago. In the beginning, I used it often. My husband never did because he did not like the taste of the coffee. It is frothier (even black) than a regular coffee maker and not hot enough for him. These days I rarely use it. It's just more convenient to use my Cuisinart grind and brew coffee maker without having two things to clean.

"(unlike Opaone)"

I never said that I'd never used one. I simply asked why a built-in.

I've played with a number of different Miele and other similar machines. No idea if that specific model but they all share the same mechanism and therein lay the problem.

In order to make espresso you must produce a tight puck that has to be knocked out with great force. Machines can't do this so they all have to use a much lighter tamp and make other compromises so what you're getting is not espresso but somewhat strong American coffee and there's a huge difference in these. As American coffee goes it's not bad, sometimes better than drip and not quite as good as an Americano. For expresso drinks it falls way short.

Similarly these cannot froth nor pour properly. Another area where Breville nailed it and are widely recognized as overwhelmingly the best auto frothing.

A good overview here: http://localmile.org/cafe/

“I never said that I'd never used one.”

You are correct, and I wasn’t clear when I made the statement about your experience. What would have been more clear, was for me to say, “based on opaone’s statement that there is no valid reason anyone would get one, I assume they don’t have one, and therefore don’t have day to day experience.”

I have also played with them, but we all know that there is no substitute for having owned something or hearing from those who do.

I do believe that preference for coffee vs espresso, “proper” frothing, and those types of things are personal opinions, and not undisputed facts. I realize other people treat them as facts, based on many forum discussions all over the internet. I also know that many people (myself included) have multiple coffee/espresso making solutions available to them, based on what their preference or desire is at the time.

Thanks, Caroline! I can see how cleaning two separate coffee makers could be annoying.

"I do believe that preference for coffee vs espresso, “proper” frothing, and those types of things are personal opinions, and not undisputed facts."

Yes and sort of. We all have personal tastes and likes and dislikes. I overwhelmingly have the widest palatte of my family or, with one exception, anyone I know. Because of the travel that I do I've had to learn to eat and hopefully enjoy just about anything. My wife is Swedish and has a definite Scandinavian palette. Kids vary but generally have 'more refined' palettes.

Here's the thing with coffee. In general a properly prepared coffee drink will have very wide and near universal appeal while a lessor drink will have appeal but to a much narrower audience.

You may love the coffee a particular machine like the Miele makes even if "it's not that great of a drink". I'd probably like it as well. Or at least be OK with it. Some others the same and others not so much. A drink made w/ an Oracle though will have much broader and near universal appeal than one made with the Miele.

That's why I was so surprised by @cheri127's comment.

In the end the only thing that matters is if you're happy with your purchase.

@M Riz did your Thermador actually ship and arrive yet?

Yes, weve had it for 2 weeks, makes great coffee. The only installation issue we had was the error message about the drip tray but the plumbers fixed an issue w the drain. Did you have a question?

No, just wondering if it ever did arrive, and how you were liking it. We ended up ordering it as well, even with the shipping delays. I'm glad it worked out!

It was a very long wait as was everything, aside from the non communication from Thermador, everything really is beautiful. Its nice to be able to offer specialty coffees to our guests yesterday, every one was happy. We did order extra bean hoppers because we switch between regular and decaf at night, so thats something to consider. As of right now, all is well and we are happy with the coffee machine. 🤞🏻

It looks beautiful! And that’s a good reminder about the bean hoppers. I will definitely want to switch back and forth, so will need to order an extra also.

@jazzandjerz - Have you received the Thermador yet? We have one in our newly renovated kitchen & LOVE it! I’ve just scratched the surface of the different options. Hope it works well for you!

Ours is in, love it.

@shellymccrea we have not received it yet. Ordered in February, now saying October delivery. I’m optimistic it will be worth the wait, though. Honestly, the space may not be ready for it until then, if we continue to have construction delays ;)

@opaone For your amusement. I tweaked the Oracle to my liking. Very happy now. The Miele was consigned to the beach. About a month after we received the Oracle I went to the beach and was totally underwhelmed by the coffee from the Miele. Hahahaha. I played around with some different beans and found one that makes a better cup but the Oracle really does make a superior one. It's extravagent but we may have to replace the Miele with an Oracle at the beach too. (My daughter will happily take it off my hands. LOL).

We ordered last June & recieved it in April. Like yours, our space was delayed quite a bit, but such is life right now. We really enjoy the machine & will be setting up the wifi features soon!

Did you choose Thermdor or Miele?

We chose the Thermador

thank you fro the quick reply. Are you satisfied? Is it a plumbed unit? Have you had any issues with the drain pipe?

I have a Meile now and really like it but we are building another home and the $2000 plus differnce in cost is appealing. :)

I wish I could tell you! The delivery date keeps getting pushed back, and I haven’t received it yet. Hopefully by the end of the year. There is someone upthread who has one and is happy with it. The plumbed drain was what tipped the scales to Thermador for me, so I’m excited to be able to try it out.

Do not buy the Thermador TCM24PS/009. We designed and built an entire pantry around this $4,000 coffeemaker. After waiting over a year for delivery, we've been in the house 8 weeks and it's worked about 3 days of that. When I first called Thermador customer support, they suggested 4 local repair people to come and look at it. 3 of the 4 stated they no longer worked on Thermador products. The one came out and made an assessment and we didn't hear from him for 2 weeks, I called and he gave an excuse of why he was behind. About 10 days later I randomly get a call from an "authorized service technician" coming from another town that he would be at my house in 20 minutes. He identifies a whole different issue than the 1st repairman. Tells my husband we need a new brewing unit and he would order one, and shows my husband how to install it ourselves once it's delivered. It arrived damaged. I just got off the phone requesting a replacement brewing unit. This call center guy tells me they have no record of the aforementioned, and that they don't allow us to install our own parts???? So now I have to wait 3 more weeks for another "authorized service technician" appointment. I'm more than $20,000 in to this coffee maker and still having to use our $79 Keurig. Customer service is nice and professional enough, but Thermador/Bosch doesn't seem to have it together enough to be identified as a luxury brand and in my experience the product is inferior. After installing all other Wolf appliances, we chose the Thermador coffee system because it could be plumbed to a water and automoatic drain source - I recommend you shop around for other options.

Built-in coffee makers are really not a good idea. When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not. More: http://localmile.org/cafe/

We've been happy and problem-free with 2 Miele coffee machines (plumbed & drain) in our previous and current houses.

I think this statement could easily apply to most appliances these days!

Quote: "When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not."

Why just pick on coffee machines? lol

Chipsa, if you read the comment history, opaone seems universally opposed to built in, automatic machines. No matter what the situation, or if it fits the need of the purchaser.

I've had the Miele built in coffee maker for 9 years with no issues.

I think this statement could easily apply to most appliances these days!

Quote: "When they break, and they do, it is both time consuming and expensive to get them repaired. Some people have good luck with them, many do not."

Why just pick on coffee machines? lol

Appliances like ranges and ovens need to be built in due to size, weight and electrical/gas connections. Coffee machines do not so we have some options here.

If Miele or other coffee makers were more reliable (and made better drinks) then I wouldn't recommend against doing these built-in. But they are a high repair appliance. According to a couple of Miele repair people, they are likely the highest repair item that Miele makes.

Anecdotally some people have had very good luck with them. And probably 80-90% work well for a decade or more and if you get one of these and you like the coffee it makes then you're golden.

But if you find yourself in the 10-20% that will need repairs then you've an expensive (and often time consuming) problem. That's a pretty high risk. Or if you decide that you want something that will make better drinks you're kind of stuck. And keep in mind that this is only coffee, hot water, and psuedo-steamed milk, it doesn't make espresso nor espresso drinks (it makes espresso-named drinks with coffee).

If people are enamored with the glitz of these things and really want one that's fine. I just want to make sure that people think through the downsides before making an irrational decision. A Breville Oracle Touch for instance is less than half the cost, is an actual espresso machine (and quite highly regarded), and has a better reliability record.

Hi, just seeing this ans wanted to know which machine you chose and if you are happy with it. I have had my Miele built in for about 6 years now. i bought it at a discount since it had been previously purchased and returned after very little use. I have a VERY busy household and we are heavy coffee drinkers. I LOVE my coffee machine. Have not had any problems and everybody that comes over loves the coffee it produces. My daughter is currently looking at a Thermador because they were being offered their appliance package with that brand and wanted to know how feedback on the Thermador coffee machine.

@labmomof5, We did decide on the Thermador, and finally received it in February…about a year after we ordered it. We are loving it so far. It is not in our kitchen, but in a secondary location. However, it has become my go to machine, as I prefer the coffee from it more than the coffee my Gaggia makes. I love having the drain plumbed also. No complaints yet!

@jazzandjerz are you still happy with your Thermador? We have a Miele that we've had for about 7 years and it's slowly broken down over the past few years. First the steamer, then would only make coffee, but not espresso. The service call was more than the unit was worth so we're upgrading.

Which brings me to my question: Do you know if the plumbed drain is required for use on the Thermador? I have a supply line but no drain line. Thermador cannot answer this question for me. I assume if I don't have a drain line, I can just empty the drip tray manually, but don't want to make a $4k + mistake if that's not the case. They've directed me to a dealer, who said they thought I could just empty it manually but also would not say for sure one way or the other.

Metalmanec, we are still very happy with it. We’ve mostly abandoned our kitchen coffee maker, and now use the “secondary” Thermador that’s in our master suite.

The plumbed drain is not required for use. When ours was first installed, we had to make some adjustments to the drain, and were using it without it for the first couple of weeks. I believe there was even a note about that usage in the installation manual. I will say that my impression from that time period was that the water collection tray was not large, and required frequent emptying. But that could also have been influenced by my expectations of an integrated drain not being a reality right away.

Chiming in - we’ve had a non-plumbed Thermador for a little over a year & I love it! I use it daily & have had zero issues or problems. Yes, I have to empty the drip tray manually, but I assume I would still need to open the unit regularly to refill the beans, empty the grounds, clean it, etc.

Shelly, I'm glad you are happy with it, that's definitely good feedback. I am planning to pull the trigger today and order it already--I've been stuck in analysis paralysis trying to decide which way to go.

I have a partially plumbed unit now (supply but no drain) and I've not found emptying the tray to be overly burdensome, but it is really convenient to have the water canister auto fill, and the line is already there, so that's why I'm looking at the plumbed unit. If I didn't already have a waterline installed, I'd have no issue with the non-plumbed unit.

We have an old Miele cva 615 from around 2007. Machine has done well over 10,000 coffees (99% espresso) over that time period (it has a little counter in one of the submenus). Around 10 years in the pressure pump went out, but this is actually a very easy replacement you can do yourself with a $30 part you can get on Amazon. There are videos online to show you how. Have had no other problems.

My machine has always made excellent coffee, and I prefer it to all but a few coffee shops I have run into overseas over the years. It's coffee snob level coffee to be sure.

The only other machines I have experience with are a Wolf built in unit and a Breville counter top unit. Both made good coffee but I still prefer the Miele. Matter of personal taste of course, but I can say more objectively that the crema on the Miele is a tighter, richer, more consistent foam compared to the others I have seen. Excellent aroma and flavor. Not sure if it's better pressure or plumbing or the way the machine packs the plug after grinding-- but the end result is just plain delicious.

My wife and I are building a new house and a new Miele unit is a must for us. We're putting it in a wet bar area off the kitchen.

TT

"(99% espresso)"

Reality here is 0% espresso. The 615 is incapable of making espresso. It can make a strong american coffee and if you like it that's fine and good but don't confuse it with espresso.

opane - did you ever consider a Combination steam oven? Do they break as often as coffee machines?

We have a Miele Combi Steam. Combi steam ovens don't have the moving mechanical parts that a coffee machine has so much less to go wrong.

We bought a Thermador TCM24PS and although I love having it, there are technicians in my house as I write this and they have no idea what is wrong. How can Thermador sell a product that no one can service? The most popular appliance service company in our area will not do warranty work for them. This is the second time in two years (first was a faulty grinder when it was brand new and they had no idea how to service it then either.) we just bought extended warrantees for the other appliances but none was available for the coffee machine…..what does that say?!

LOL, I think the main reason to have one of these has been missed..."because you can".

Haha Roger! I know, 1st world problems. BUT, you would expect something that expensive would be supported by the manufacturer. UPDATE, Thermador has stepped up and will cover the repair. My husband can be persuasive😝